Barnhardt Podcast #113: Leave the Bishopric, Take the Papacy

Canon 748.1: All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and His Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possess the right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know.

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In this episode, Mark and Ann are again joined by Dr. Edmund Mazza. We further explore his thesis that the words and actions of Pope Benedict suggest that he intended to separate the functional aspects of the papacy from the ontological essence of the papacy, having himself retained the latter. In delegating the governance function/active role/ministry, it appears Benedict may have done so by attempting to separate the See of Rome from the Primacy itself. There are conflicting opinions going back at least to the 19th century, of whether such a thing is even possible. What we do know, with metaphysical certitude, is that the question of splitting the governing powers of the papacy was being widely discussed since at least the mid-20th century. We also know, from no less an authority than Anglican convert and ultramontanist Cardinal Manning, that the idea of splitting off the Roman See from the Primacy is NOT a heretical idea. Accepting for the sake of argument that this split is both possible and not heretical, we proceed to probe the evidence for the better part of two hours.

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2 thoughts on “Barnhardt Podcast #113: Leave the Bishopric, Take the Papacy

  1. Supplemental Quotes in relation to the Third Secret of Fatima:

    “The apostasy of the city of Rome from the vicar of Christ and its destruction by Antichrist may be thoughts so new to many Catholics, that I think it well to recite the text of theologians of greatest repute. First Malvenda, who writes expressly on the subject, states as the opinion of Ribera, Gaspar Melus, Biegas, Suarrez, Bellarmine and Bosius that Rome shall apostatise from the faith, drive away the Vicar of Christ and return to its ancient paganism. …Then the Church shall be scattered, driven into the wilderness, and shall be for a time, as it was in the beginning, invisible hidden in catacombs, in dens, in mountains, in lurking places; for a time it shall be swept, as it were from the face of the earth. Such is the universal testimony of the Fathers of the early Church.” – Cardinal Henry Edward Manning, The Present Crisis of the Holy See, 1861, London: Burns and Lambert, pp. 88-90

    On 15 July 1946, Catholic historian Professor William Thomas Walsh interviewed Sister Lucia at her convent of the Dorothean Sisters at Vilar, Portugal. This interview clearly demonstrates that Our Lady’s request for the Consecration of Russia will only be fulfilled when the Pope and together with the world’s Catholic bishops consecrate specifically Russia. “Sister Lucia made it plain that Our Lady did not ask for the consecration of the world to Her Immaculate Heart. What She [Our Lady] demanded specifically was the consecration of Russia. Sister Lucia stated more than once and with deliberate emphasis: ‘What Our Lady wants is that the Pope and all the bishops in the world shall consecrate Russia to Her Immaculate Heart on one special day. If this is done, She will convert Russia and there will be peace. If it is not done, the errors of Russia will spread through every country in the world’.”
    Professor Walsh asked,
    “Does this mean, in your opinion, that every country [including the USA and the VATICAN CITY STATE], without exception, will be overcome by Communism?”
    Sister Lucia replied, “Yes.” [this was her precise answer] – William Thomas Walsh, Our Lady of Fatima 4th printing, (1947) p. 226; See also Louis Kaczmarek, The Wonders She Performs, 1986, p. 160

    There is the little-known revelation of Our Lady of Fatima to Sister Lucia in the early 1950s. Our Lady appeared to Sister Lucy in May 1952 and said: “Make it known to the Holy Father that I am always awaiting the Consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart. Without that Consecration, Russia will not be able to convert, nor will the world have peace.”- Il Pellegrinaggio Della Meraviglie, p. 440. Rome, 1960. This same work, published under the auspices of the Italian episcopate, affirms that this message was communicated to Pope Pius XII in June. Also, Canon Barthas mentioned that apparition in his communication to the Mariological Congress of Lisbon-Fatima, in 1967; see De Primoridiis cultus marianae, Acta congressus mariologici-mariana in Lusitania anno 1967 celebrati, p. 517. Rome, 1970. See Frère François de Marie des Anges, Fatima: Intimate Joy World Event, Book Four, Fatima: Tragedy and Triumph, pp. 21 and 37.

    Russia has not embraced the Catholic Faith and thus cannot possibly be said to have converted. Father Joaquin Alonso, probably the foremost Fatima expert of the 20th Century, had many interviews with Sister Lucy. In 1976 he wrote: “… we should affirm that Sister Lucia always thought that the ‘conversion’ of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church.”- La Verdad sobre el Secreto de Fatima, Fatima sin mitos, Father Joaquin Alonso, (2nd edition, Ejercito Azul, Madrid, 1988) p. 78. English translation by Joseph Cain. Original Spanish reads: “… podriamos decir que Lucia ha pensado siempre que la conversión de Rusia no se entiende solo de un retorno de los pueblos de Rusia a la religion cristiano-ortodoxa, rechazando el ateismo marxista y ateo de los soviets, sino que se refiere pura y llanmente a la conversion total e integral de un retorno a la unica y verdadera Iglesia, la catolica-romana.”

    “I cannot reveal anything about what I have learned at Fatima about the Third Secret, but I can say that it has two parts: the one concerns the Pope. The other, logically – although I should say nothing – should be the continuation of the words: ‘In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved.’” – Father Joseph Schweigl 1952 (Pope Pius XII sent him to interrogate Sr. Lucia on September 2, 1952); Frère Michel de la Sainte Trinité, The Whole Truth About Fatima: The Third Secret, Vol. III, p. 710, p. 337-338

    We know that Cardinal Ottaviani read the Third Secret and made reference to one of its themes on the 15th of December 1960. In an allocution to the members of the Marian International Academy he declared,
    “It suffices to cast a rapid glance at what is happening at this moment in the world, in order to recognize that without the intervention of the Mother of all mercy near the All-Powerful, the world risks becoming pagan once more, a paganism more deplorable than the first paganism, because it is aggravated by apostasy. We are witnessing a veritable deluge of sins, a deluge which leaves behind it a nauseating quagmire, infected by immorality, lies and blasphemy…” – “Documentation Catholique,” 1961, col. 244, (15 December 1960 – Allocution de S. Em. Le cardinal Ottaviani à l’Académie Mariale Internationale)

    In 1963 during a public admonition to his spiritual sons amidst the Second Vatican Council Padre Pio said:
    “Due to the rampant injustice and abuse of power, we have reached a compromise with atheistic materialism [Communism], a denial of the rights of God. This is the punishment foretold at Fatima … All the priests who support the possibility of a dialogue with the negators of God and with the Luciferian powers of the world [Freemasonry] are mad, have lost their faith, no longer believe in the Gospel! In so doing they betray the word of God, because Christ came to bring on earth perpetual covenant only to men of heart [good will], but did not join with the men thirsty for power and dominion over the brothers … The flock is dispersed when the shepherds ally with the enemies of the Truth of Christ. All the forms of power made deaf to the will of the authority of the heart of God are rapacious wolves that renew the passion of Christ and make the Madonna shed tears … ” – Published in “Avvenire” August 19, 1978; partial quote also in “The Fourth Secret of Fatima” 2006 by Antonio Socci)

    “It is therefore completely probable that the text makes concrete references to the crisis of faith within the Church and to the negligence of the pastors themselves [and the] internal struggles in the very bosom of the Church and of grave pastoral negligence of the upper hierarchy …
    “In the period preceding the great triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, terrible things are to happen. These form the content of the third part of the Secret. What are they? If ‘in Portugal the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved,’ … it can be clearly deduced from this that in other parts of the Church these dogmas are going to become obscure or even lost altogether. …
    “Does the unpublished text speak of concrete circumstances? It is very possible that it speaks not only of a real crisis of the faith in the Church during this in-between period, but like the secret of La Salette, for example, there are more concrete references to the internal struggles of Catholics or to the fall of priests and religious. Perhaps it even refers to the failures of the upper hierarchy of the Church. For that matter, none of this is foreign to other communications Sister Lucia has had on this subject.
    “An inopportune revelation of the text would only have further exasperated the two tendencies which continue to tear the Church apart: a traditionalism which would believe itself to be assisted by the Fatima prophecies, and a progressivism which would have lashed out against these apparitions, which in such a scandalous manner would seem to put the brakes on the conciliar Church’s forward progress … Pope Paul VI judged it opportune and prudent to delay the revelation of the text until better times. Pope John XXIII declared that the text did not refer to his pontificate … And the following popes did not consider that the moment had come to lift the veil of mystery, in circumstances where the Church has still not overcome the frightening impact of twenty post-conciliar years, during which the crisis of the Faith has installed itself at every level.” – Father Joaquin Alonso (Official Archivist at Fatima); La Verdad sobre el Secreto de Fatima 1976. See also Frère Michel de la Sainte Trinité, The Whole Truth About Fatima – Vol. III, p. 687, 704-705. See also De nuevo el Secreto de Fatima 1982 Ephemerides mariologicae p. 93]

    In an interview conducted in November 11, 1984, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) confirmed that, with the Pope’s permission, he had read the Secret and that it concerns, in his words, “a radical call to conversion, the absolute gravity of history, the dangers threatening the Faith and the life of a Christian, and therefore the world. And also the importance of the ‘novissimi’ (the last times).” The Cardinal went on to explain that “if it is not published… it is to avoid confusing religious prophecy with sensationalism. But the things contained in the Third Secret correspond to what has been announced in Scripture and are confirmed by many other Marian apparitions.” – Ecco perche la fede e in crisi in the review, Jesus, p. 79

    Continuing his diagnosis, he [Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger] recalls that this “true” Council, “already during its sessions [Vatican II] and then increasingly in the subsequent period, was opposed by a self-styled ‘spirit of the Council’, which in reality is a true ‘anti-spirit’ of the Council. According to this pernicious anti-spirit [Konzils-Ungeist in German], everything that is ‘new’ (or presumed such: how many old heresies have surfaced again in recent years that have been presented as something new!) is always and in every case better than what has been or what is. It is the anti-spirit according to which the history of the Church would first begin with Vatican II, viewed as a kind of point zero.” – The Ratzinger Report: an exclusive interview on the state of the Church (Rapporto Sulla Fede), 1985, by Vittorio Messori, p. 34-35

    The Blessed Virgin was alerting us against the apostasy in the Church.” “I would not be surprised if the Third Secret alluded to dark times for the Church: grave confusions and troubling apostasies within Catholicism itself…If we consider the grave crisis we have lived through since the Council, the signs that this prophecy has been fulfilled do not seem to be lacking…” – Silvio Cardinal Oddi, to Italian journalist Lucio Brunelli in the journal Il Sabato, Rome, March 17, 1990

    “The Secret of Fatima contains a sad prophecy about the Church and, for this reason Pope John did not divulge it. And neither have Paul VI or John Paul II. It seems to me that what is basically written is that the Pope would convene a Council in 1960 which, contrary to expectations, would indirectly result in many difficulties for the Church.” – Cardinal Silvio Oddi, who was Prefect of the Congregation of the Clergy in the Pontificate of John Paul II and very close to John XXIII during his reign; 30 Giorni, November 11, 1990, p. 69

    “Silvio Cardinal Oddi spoke with Sister Lucia in 1985. Afterward, Cardinal Oddi said [regarding the Third Secret] that ‘In my opinion, what is written is that in 1960, the Pope would have convoked a council from which, contrary to his intentions, there would arise many difficulties in the Church.’” – The Fourth Secret of Fatima, 2006 by Antonio Socci p. 123

    “The prophecy of Fatima was completely defied! It is a lack of sense, I would say, because according to the interpretation that seems to me most worthy of consideration, the Third Secret – which John XXIII and his successors thought inopportune to reveal – […] regards the ‘revolution’ in the Catholic Church.”
    “From a Council convened to throw light on the beauty and profundity of the Christian mystery by presenting the Church as the spouse of Christ, […] so many innovations were born that they appear to constitute a true internal revolution.” – Cardinal Silvio Oddi, Il Tenero Mastino di Dio, Rome: Progetto Museali Editore, 1995, p. 217-218

    “The Message of Fatima is a call to conversion, alerting humanity to have nothing to do with the “dragon” whose “tail swept down a third of the stars of Heaven and cast them to the earth” (Apoc. 12:4). […] In her motherly concern, the Blessed Virgin came here to Fátima to ask men and women “to stop offending God, Our Lord, who is already very offended.” It is a mother’s sorrow that compels her to speak; the destiny of her children is at stake. For this reason she asks the little shepherds: “Pray, pray much and make sacrifices for sinners; many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray and make sacrifices for them.” – Pope John Paul II Homily for the Beatification of Jacinta and Francisco at Fatima on May 13, 2000 http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/homilies/2000/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_20000513_beatification-fatima.html
    [NOTE: “a third of the stars of Heaven” has been traditionally interpreted as fallen clergy; cardinals, bishops and priests who are at the service of Satan]

    “I believe that [Third] part of the secret concerns the Church from within, perhaps doctrinal difficulties, a crisis of unity, rebellion. The last sentence my aunt wrote, which precedes the part that is still unknown, says, In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved. Therefore, people elsewhere in the Church might waver on dogma. But this is just speculation.” – Father Jose dos Santos Valinho (nephew of Sr. Lucia) in 2000; Reportage su Fatima by Renzo and Roberto Allegri, Milan 2000

    “I believe that there is a connection between that which is announced in the first part of the Secret, which concerns wars and sufferings which would be everywhere, and the second part which concerns the persecutions and a type of breakdown of the faith. Because where the ellipsis (the three dots, “…”) was placed, it means “Here is the third part, which is not revealed” and then the conclusion “In Portugal the dogma of the faith will always be preserved etc.” This suggests to me that there is a relationship between faith and the third part of the Secret. Therefore, it is something that relates to the Church. It is some kind of universal crisis which affects the whole Church and all of humanity.” – Father Jose dos Santos Valinho (nephew of Sr. Lucia); This public statement was made on the 14th of February, 2003 broadcast on the program ENIGMA, which was transmitted prime time, nationwide on RAI, the National TV Network of Italy, The Fatima Crusader, Issue 74, p.76

    Raymond Arroyo: One of your jobs here at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is investigating the Marian apparitions that occur in history and in our present age. You, in 2000, released the so-called, “Third Secret of Fatima.” And part of that revelation was that there would be a hail of bullets, the Pope would fall and appear to be dead. The Congregation interpreted that as the assassination attempt on his Holiness, John Paul II. Is it possible – and I’ve gotten many letters asking me to ask this question – is it possible that this could point to a future Pope?
    Cardinal Ratzinger: We cannot exclude that this is clear. Normally, the private visions are limited to the next generation, and even Lucia, and all those in Fatima were convinced that in the time of one generation this would be realized. So, the immediate content of the vision is this, I would say. And it is expressed in a vision in an apocalyptic language. It is clear in all the visions, we do not have an historical language, as a report on television, that we have a visionary, symbolic language. We can understand this is indeed an indication of the crisis of the Church in the second part of the last century and in our time. But, even if the immediate sense of this prophecy, this vision is always in the next generations; it has also sense for future times. We cannot exclude – even I would say, we have to wait for, that even in other times we’ll have similar crises of the Church and perhaps also similar attacks to a Pope. – The World Over: Cardinal Ratzinger Interview, Raymond Arroyo with Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger the future Pope Benedict XVI [Taken from the official transcript of the interview by EWTN News Director Raymond Arroyo of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, which first aired on EWTN on 5 September 2003. Cardinal Ratzinger was the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, an office to which he was appointed by Pope John Paul II in 1981] https://web.archive.org/web/20190608220749/http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/RATZINTV.HTM
    @ 36:41 and following https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKVO_v2FbtE

    “He deceives himself who thinks that the prophetic mission of Fatima is concluded.”[ …] “May the seven years which separate us from the centenary of the apparitions hasten the fulfillment of the prophecy of the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to the glory of the Most Holy Trinity.” – Pope Benedict XVI Homily at Fatima on May 13, 2010 http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/pt/homilies/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20100513_fatima.html

    Question: Is it reasonable to suggest that Pope Benedict XVI acted in light of (in conformity with and according to) the exact intelligence provided by Our Lady of the Rosary in the Third Secret of Fatima?

  2. Thank you, thank you, thank you! This part 2 was the most enlightening and clear presentation of what’s happening in The Church and thus the world. Anxiously awaiting part 3. Prayers offered for you all at the Holy Sacrafice today!

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